~
Hi wotsup
I believe there are some mix-ups with two words you mentioned:
'Firstborn' , which is different from " First created".
Once these confusion is clear up, please read
Hebrews 1,2 , Psalms 45 & 95.
See what
God (The Father) says about God (the Son),
and
God (the Holy Spirit) 'repeats' ( in Hebrews 3) what God (The Father) says in Psalms 95.
The Three are in perfect harmonious Tri-Une fellowship and conversations.
(note:
Psalms 45 & 95 were written hundred of years before Christ Jesus' baptism)
I know you are a sincere man,wotsup, i wish i can have a cuppa and chat with you.
=
1.
First-created , πρωτόπλαστος , protóplastos
versus
Firstborn, πρωτότοκος, protótokos
(from Google)
~
Jesus Christ is Firstborn, not first-created.
Firstborn does not mean first created - Let Us Reason Ministries
www.letusreason.org/Trin29.htm
Firstborn does not mean
first created. The
Greek word for firstborn (Prototokos) is found 7 times in the New Testament.
It means first in rank, an heir, to have preeminence in position, NOT in origin.
The other
Greek word for
created is Protoktisis, it is NOT used for Christ.
The
word “firstborn” in the
Greek is “prototokos,”
~
The Firstborn Creator?
by
Bodie Hodge on June 1, 2009
Share:
How could Jesus be the Creator (
John 1:1–3) if he was the firstborn of all creation (
Colossians 1:15)?
John 1:1–3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Colossians 1:15–16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Psalm 2:6,
7
“Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You.’”
Hebrews 1:5,
6
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “ I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Off the cuff, the first thing that needs to be established is that Christ is the Creator God as these passages reveal. Otherwise, Christ would have been the
uncreated creator of the resultant created being, which is obviously illogical!
The alleged contradiction results from an improper understanding of the phrase “firstborn over all of creation” and the meaning and date of the “begetting.” Do these really mean the “first created entity” at a time near Creation, which some claim is implied here? Absolutely not. A Christian apologist has even pointed out that there is a Greek word for “first created,” and it was not used in this instance.
1
The context of the Psalms and Hebrews passages is clearly of the time of Jesus’ ministry on earth, indicating his incarnation some 2000 years ago, not the Beginning or not an alleged beginning to His actual existence.
And consider this passage:
Psalm 89:20,
27
I have found My servant David; With My holy oil I have anointed him. . . . Also I will make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
Take notice how David has been allotted the position of firstborn!
However, David was the youngest—and not the firstborn—of Jesse, his father; the firstborn was Eliab as indicated in 1 Samuel 17:13. Take notice in
Psalm 89:27 how God
assigns this
title.
Consider also Ephraim’s inheritance of the title of firstborn (
Jeremiah 31:9), even though he was the younger (
Genesis 41:51–52).
Like David and Ephraim, Jesus also received this title. David and Ephraim were obviously not the first created entities, and so it would be illogical to make the claim that Jesus was created due merely to the endowment of this titleship. Hence, there is no contradiction. Jesus is both the Creator and the One who inherited this elite title.
https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/the-firstborn-creator/
~
What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation ...
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-first-born.html
Nov 1, 2007 - In it, he explained
Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul's description of
Christ as the
first-born of creation
means that
Jesus was created -- not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the
Bible.
Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1.
~
In What Sense Is Jesus the Firstborn of All Creation? - Blue Letter Bible
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_216.cfm
It has been alleged that
firstborn means that
Jesus was the first creation of God. Does this
mean that
Jesus Christ was a created being?
~
Jesus and Christians as "Firstborn" | Bible.org
https://bible.org/article/jesus-and-christians-firstborn
Jun 1, 2004 - There are several places in the NT where
Christ is referred to as the
firstborn (πρωτοτόκος, prōtotokos). But what does this
mean?
~
2
Hebrews 1 Amplified Bible (AMP)
God’s Final Word in His Son
1 God, having spoken to the fathers long ago in [the voices and writings of] the prophets in many separate revelations [each of which set forth a portion of the truth], and in many ways,
2 has in these last days spoken [with finality] to us in [the person of One who is by His character and nature] His Son [namely Jesus], whom He appointed heir
and lawful owner of all things, through whom also He created the universe [that is, the universe as a space-time-matter continuum].
3 The Son is the radiance
and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s
[a]Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation
and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding
and maintaining
and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins
and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority],
4 having become as much superior to angels, since He has inherited a more excellent
and glorious
[b]name than they [that is, Son—the name above all names].
5 For to which of the angels did the Father ever say,
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten (fathered) You [established You as a Son, with kingly dignity]”?
And again [did He ever say to the angels],
“I shall be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?
6 [c]And when He again brings the
firstborn [highest-ranking Son] into the world, He says,
“And all the angels of God are to worship Him.”
7 And concerning the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministering servants flames of fire [to do His bidding].”
8 But about the Son [the Father says to Him],
“Your throne, [d]O God, is forever and ever,
And the
[e]scepter of [absolute] righteousness is the scepter of
[f]His kingdom.
9
“You have loved righteousness [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] and have hated lawlessness [injustice, sin].
Therefore God, Your God, Has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,
“
[g]You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11
They will perish, but You remain [forever and ever];
And they will all wear out like a garment,
12
And like a robe You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will be changed.
But
[h]You are the same [forever],
And Your years will never end.”
13 But to which of the angels has the Father ever said,
“Sit at My right hand [together with me in royal dignity],
Until I make your enemies
A footstool for your feet [in triumphant conquest]”?
14 Are not all the angels ministering spirits sent out [by God] to serve (accompany, protect) those who will inherit salvation? [Of course they are!]
Footnotes:
- Hebrews 1:3 The word “Shekinah” does not appear in Scripture, but has been used by both Christians and Jews to describe the visible divine Presence of God, in such things as the burning bush, the cloud and the pillar of fire that led the Hebrews in the wilderness, and the Presence of God that rested between the cherubim over the mercy seat of the ark.
- Hebrews 1:4 In Greek “name” occurs last in this verse to emphasize that Jesus alone bears the name Son. No angel is superior to the Son.
- Hebrews 1:6 Most likely a reference to the second coming of Christ when He will be acknowledged as divine and worshiped as the Son of God. Another view suggests that this may be a reference to His incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth.
- Hebrews 1:8 The Son is recognized as deity by being addressed by the Father as “God.”
- Hebrews 1:8 I.e. symbol of authority.
- Hebrews 1:8 Late mss read Your.
- Hebrews 1:10 The deity of Jesus is acclaimed by the designation “You, Lord.”
- Hebrews 1:12 Since He is deity, the eternality of Jesus is recognized.
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 2015 by
The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, CA 90631. All rights reserved.
~
Hebrews 1 New International Version (NIV)
God’s Final Word: His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by
his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”
[a]?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”
[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
[d]
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
[e]
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
[f]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”
[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Footnotes:
- Hebrews 1:5 Psalm 2:7
- Hebrews 1:5 2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chron. 17:13
- Hebrews 1:6 Deut. 32:43 (see Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint)
- Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4
- Hebrews 1:9 Psalm 45:6,7
- Hebrews 1:12 Psalm 102:25-27
- Hebrews 1:13 Psalm 110:1
New International Version (NIV)
`
Hebrews 2 New International Version (NIV)
Warning to Pay Attention
2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Jesus Made Fully Human
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little
[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”
[b][c]
In putting everything under them,
[d] God left nothing that is not subject to them.
[e] Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.
[f] 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
[g] 12 He says,
“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”
[h]
13 And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
[i]
And again he says,
“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
[j]
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death....
Footnotes:
- Hebrews 2:7 Or them for a little while
- Hebrews 2:8 Psalm 8:4-6
- Hebrews 2:8 Or 7 You made him a little lower than the angels;/ you crowned him with glory and honor/ 8 and put everything under his feet.”
- Hebrews 2:8 Or him
- Hebrews 2:8 Or him
- Hebrews 2:8 Or him
- Hebrews 2:11 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in verse 12; and in 3:1, 12; 10:19; 13:22.
- Hebrews 2:12 Psalm 22:22
- Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:17
- Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:18
- Hebrews 2:17 Or like his brothers
New International Version (NIV)
`
Hebrews 3 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Greater Than Moses
3 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest......
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
[b]
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
[c]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Footnotes:
- Hebrews 3:5 Num. 12:7
- Hebrews 3:11 Psalm 95:7-11
- Hebrews 3:15 Psalm 95:7,8
New International Version (NIV)
~
3
Trnity
The Tri-une Godhead is found in Isaiah 48:16.
“Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the beginning I have not spoken in secret,
From the time that it happened, I was there.
And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His [Holy] Spirit.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 48&version=AMP
Psalm 95 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Praise to the Lord, and Warning against Unbelief.
O come, let us sing joyfully to the Lord;
Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.
2
Let us come before His presence with a song of thanksgiving;
Let us shout joyfully to Him with songs.
3
For the Lord is a great God
And a great King above all gods,
4
In whose hand are the depths of the earth;
The peaks of the mountains are His also.
5
The sea is His, for He made it [by His command];
And His hands formed the dry land.
6
O come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker [in reverent praise and prayer].
7
For He is our God
And we are the people of His pasture and the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice,
8
Do not harden your hearts
and become spiritually dull as at Meribah [the place of strife],
And as at Massah [the place of testing] in the wilderness,
9
“When your fathers tested Me,
They tried Me, even though they had seen My work [of miracles].
10
“For forty years I was grieved
and disgusted with that generation,
And I said, ‘They are a people who err in their heart,
And they do not acknowledge
or regard My ways.’
11
“Therefore I swore [an oath] in My wrath,
‘They absolutely shall not enter My rest [the land of promise].’”
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 2015 by
The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, CA 90631. All rights reserved.
~
Doctrine of TRINITY,
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) make man in Our image, according to Our likeness [not physical, but a spiritual personality and moral likeness];...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 1&version=AMP
Lets listen to Jews who understand OT Hebrews say:
"
Jewishness and the Trinity
by
Arnold Fruchtenbaum | Jul 1, 198
...
The Three Personalities in the Same Passage
Nor have the Hebrew Scriptures neglected to put all three personalities of the Godhead together in one passage.
Two examples are
Isaiah 48:12-16 and
63:7-14.
Because of the significance of the first passage, it will be quoted:
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together. All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD has loved him; he shall do His pleasure on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent me.”
It should be noted that the speaker refers to himself as the one who is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth. It is clear that he cannot be speaking of anyone other than God.
But then in verse 16, the speaker refers to himself using the pronouns of I and me and then distinguishes himself from two other personalities.
He distinguishes himself from the Lord YHVH and then from the Spirit of God.
Here is the Tri-unity as clearly defined as the Hebrew Scriptures make it.
(The Lord’s Mercy Remembered
7 I will recount the steadfast love of the Lord,
the praises of the Lord,
according to all that the Lord has granted us,
uand the great goodness to the house of Israel
that he has granted them according to his compassion,
according to the abundance of his steadfast love.
8 For he said, “Surely they are my people,
children who will not deal falsely.”
And he became their Savior.
9 vIn all their affliction he was afflicted,
3
and the angel of his presence saved them;
win his love and in his pity he redeemed them;
xhe lifted them up and carried them all the days of old.
10 yBut they rebelled
zand grieved his Holy Spirit;
therefore he turned to be their enemy,
and himself fought against them.
11 Then he remembered
athe days of old,
of Moses and his people.
4
bWhere is he who brought them up out of the sea
with the shepherds of his flock?
Where is he who put in the midst of them
his Holy Spirit,
12 who caused his glorious arm
to go at the right hand of Moses,
cwho divided the waters before them
dto make for himself an everlasting name,
13 who led them through the depths?
Like a horse in the desert,
they did not stumble.
14 Like livestock that go down into the valley,
ethe Spirit of the Lord gave them rest.
So you led your people,
dto make for yourself a glorious name.)
In the second passage, there is a reflection back to the time of the Exodus where all three personalities were present and active. The Lord YHVH is referred to in verse 7, the Angel of YHVH in verse 9 and the Spirit of God in verses 10, 11 and 14. While often throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God refers to Himself as being the one solely responsible for Israel’s redemption from Egypt, in this passage three personalities are given credit for it. Yet, no contradiction is seen since all three comprise the unity of the one Godhead.
Conclusion
The teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures, then, is that there is a plurality of the Godhead.
The first person is consistently called YHVH while the second person is given the names of YHVH, the Angel of YHVH and the Servant of YHVH. Consistently and without fail, the second person is sent by the first person. The third person is referred to as the Spirit of YHVH or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit. He, too, is sent by the first person but is continually related to the ministry of the second person.
If the concept of the Tri-unity in the Godhead is not Jewish according to modern rabbis, then neither are the Hebrew Scriptures. Jewish Christians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact that Jesus is the divine Son of God. He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when he said:
“Behold, I send an Angel before you, to keep you in the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.”
—
Exodus 23:20-23
New Testament Light
In keeping with the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament clearly recognizes that there are three persons in the Godhead, although it becomes quite a bit more specific. The first person is called the Father while the second person is called the Son. The New Testament answers the question of
Proverbs 30:4: “…What is His name, and what is his Son’s name, if you know?” His son’s name is Yeshua (Jesus). In accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures, he is sent by God to be the Messiah, but this time as a man instead of as an angel. Furthermore, He is sent for a specific purpose: to die for our sins. In essence, what happened is that God became a man (not that man became God) in order to accomplish the work of atonement.
The New Testament calls the third person of the Godhead the Holy Spirit. Throughout the New Testament he is related to the work of the second person, in keeping with the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures. We see, then, that there is a continuous body of teaching in both the Old and New Testaments relating to the Tri-unity of God.
Footnotes
1Midrash Rabbah on
Genesis 1:26, New York: NOP Press, N.D.
2Genesis 22:2,12;
Judges 11:34;
Psalm 22:21;
25:16;
Proverbs 4:3;
Jeremiah 6:26;
Amos 8:10;
Zechariah 12:10
3″Personal Name of God of Israel,” written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was “Adonai” (“the Lord”), itself later replaced by “ha-Shem” (“the Name”). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of “Adonai.”—
Encyclopedic Dictionary of Judaica, p. 593
4Zohar, vol. III, 288, vol. II, 43, Hebrew editions. See also Soncino Press edition, vol. III, 134.
5In
Genesis 31 he is the Angel of God in verse 11, but then he is the God of Bethel in verse 13. In
Exodus 3 he is the Angel of YHVH in verse 2 and he is both YHVH and God in verse 4. In
Judges 6 he is the Angel of YHVH in verses 11, 12, 20, and 21 but is YHVH himself in verses 14, 16, 22 and 23. Then in
Judges 13:3 and
21 he is the Angel of YHVH but is referred to as God himself in verse 22.
https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/jewishness-and-the-trinity/
26 Top Bible Verses About the Trinity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit Scriptures
Feb 4, 2015 - God is three distinct individuals - God the Father, the Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - in one true God. The below
Bible verses and
Scriptures about the
trinity will help you have a better understanding of who God is
Luke 1:35
35 The angel answered,
“The Holy Spirit will come on you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-the-trinity/
( Doctrine of Tri-une God is not an easy topic for the unitarians' belief system.
Trinity is in OT & NT)
'May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all'
Cheers
G
~
ps,
Look forward to your response
32609014
.
