G’day,
Yep, you will need a few cuppa’s with this one ha.
Actually, I already put this post together, but first I looked but at our prior post and some of these following points I have already given which it seems you flooded your replies with copy/paste of which a lot of them were effectively countered or rule out by references that I had given. So you don't appear to be directly addressing references I give, and as you say, the word of God.
But trust me, this is only a snippet when your talking about the subject of John, The Word and there are many branches that need to be understood to get to the bottom of the bogie in 1:1.
Have miles and miles of references from my (our) research should you at all be interested. But as always, it’s not the word of wotsup that counts but the Bible, God’s word.
However, I know from when I was on the other side of the fence, when someone put up anything that wasn’t part of my set Seed then, I effectively was NOT able to see it. It just becomes like a blur, you only see snippets of it as your mind is saying, no, no, no, but it’s not actually digesting it.
And believe you me, it is very hard to even get a peek over that fence.
Happy for you to address anything you feel is not Biblical as long as you do it with references, so I can check it against God’s word, test myself.
As for my statement of faith, I think you will pretty much find it entwined in here.
John – Before Abraham I am (was) – BECAUSE in the mind and plans of My God & Father I was slain before the foundation of the world. Abraham rejoice to see my day, thinking of all his future Seeds which were going to come from that Rock that Followed them = Jesus.
In plain simple English (without quoting Bible verses) please give us an answer to this question:
In you belief, knowledge or opinion:
Q2
'Who is the historical Jesus Christ , as recorded in the Gospel of John "In plain simple English (without quoting Bible verses) please give us an answer to this question:
In you belief, knowledge or opinion:
First up and similar words of Jesus’s, or it is to my understanding, if one doesn’t know Jesus, then you don’t know our God and visa versa.
(God referred to from here on is meaning - The Almighty God and Father).
God is referred to as Elohim, which at times means Plural.
Moses is also referred to as Elohim so the plural reference is to the various aspects of them both, and their Singular identities as in God is ONE.
God obviously having more.
One in the Bible represents UNITY which is “a” Key plan of God’s so that he can become ALL in ALL.
We are one but we are many!
Without quoting Bible verses and then you say, as recorded in the Gospel of John?
Evidence points to John as the author of this Gospel. The book itself seems to reflect repeatedly that the author was an eyewitness to and a participant in many of the events which he records......"
Unaware that this was some people’s views, however it was certainly what I believed during and after spending much time in John.
So, in a nut shell, John’s Book (Cherished) is there to show that Jesus IS THE SON “OF” God, who (God) is the True Light, The “Father” of Lights.
(John in no way says, God the Son unless you go on the Greek version where at 1:18 Jesus is referenced to the only “begotten God (once wasn’t) now exalted to that position).
Jesus himself says – My Father and your Father AND my God and your God = God & Father are the one.
God’s Word is Light, hence Jesus become “a” light (Son of The Light) to show US the Light of The God, to “finish” God works.
To make, produce children of The Light.
These works were to bring God’s words of eternal Life which ARE Spirit as The God is a Spirit and that Spirit is the Holy Spirit, hence God’s word (Spirit) is Living and Active and it is his word by which we are to be born again. (Obviously that includes the words about Jesus as well).
The seed, bread, water, light, clothing, armor, house, comforter and on and on it goes.
In the beginning, before creation was the word = mind/thought/reason with and within The Almighty God and this Same God “was” the Word.
His thoughts/reasoning, the same, this, it, was in the beginning with God and then expressed out, came forth, came down, came out and hence we “now” have creation = Life.
So in God was life, (His Word, Words) but the life here mentioned (John) is now referring to, the words of eternal life Because that is the key message, purpose of John for which God was about to send into the world like never before and that was through Jesus as God had Jesus in his mind/thoughts/reasoning slain before the foundation of the world, God’s thoughts/reasonings hidden within him.
So Jesus in the mind and plans of God, was the beginning of creation of God and the firstborn of creation.
To read this any other way is to say Jesus was created.
God, (Greek word DIA which is mistranslated to mean “By” = ) on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of this future one Jesus, God and God alone created as in the Gen account by His words and the breath of his mouth the hosts of heaven as shown by numerous OT verses.
Keep in mind, God’s word is Spirit and when the times as God had planned were fulfilled Jesus received this Spirit without measure (The Holy which is the God’s) at his Baptism where he was “sent” into the world so he could spread the eternal words of life of God’s.
Them being Spirit means he also received them without measure, hence the reason for him being anointed with the Holy Spirit.
And there you have, the Word (God) came IN the flesh of Jesus, the tent, tabernacle, Temple, which we are to become as well. They saw this, it and the glory of it and Jesus and this, it, was like, a one and only of the Father. (Not begotten as this Word (not Jesus) was always with and part of the Father, who is eternal).
Jesus repeatedly tells us, I came not to do my will but the Fathers and the words I speak are the Fathers that dwells in me, Emmanuel, he also gave me a commandment of what I should say and speak, Moses prior, was informed of this Future event.
In fact, Moses people said or similar, they didn’t want to hear directly from God as it scared them, hence God’s promise to send one much like unto Moses = Jesus.
Jesus came out from, came forth from the Father and so as the Father sent me into the world, so have I sent the ones he gave me, into the world.
As we know, man is from below, from the dust, however Jesus’s conception prior to the above is from above, began at Mary via the Holy Spirit of The most highest, The Almighty God and Father. Jesus’s now literal existence, came forth, came down, out from, of God = Divine.
Now Jesus grew strong in Spirit, wisdom and in Favour with God.
(No pre-existence flavour here whatsoever unless Jesus at some point went out of favour with God).
And now because God has put all things in Jesus’s hands, The Man Jesus and because of what he has done for us, no one can come to the Father accept through Jesus, he is the Door and the corner stone for which we are to anchor to, build upon, however, no one can come to Jesus’s unless the Father draws him and that he does via His Word, the words of eternal life.
In the OT, God said to David of this future one, I will be a Father to him and he will be a Son to me.
Further along God announces the likes of, this is my Son whom I am well pleased.
God sent his only begotten Son so that whomever shall believe in him shall have everlasting life.
We know begotten comes from beget = You once didn’t have.
After the resurrection we have God saying, He has Begotten Jesus “again”, suggests he in effect didn’t have him again, dead.
We also have, “this day” I have begotten thee = A day, a time.
All the works and miracles Jesus did was in fact God doing them through Jesus. Jesus said, he can do nothing of himself, He is the true Church who I will follow.
However, Jesus did have the Spirit/Word without measure = image of God, likeness of God, express image as expresses the Fathers words, fullness of God and Jesus instead of doing his Fathers will, could have done all sorts.
BUT he emptied himself, humbled himself, not own wants etc.
Jesus didn’t consider himself equal with God and that he makes very clear in John.
Some in the Bible made the claim that Jesus was blaspheming by saying he was God and Jesus sorted this one out by saying the likes of, “you say I blaspheme BECAUSE I say I am the Son of God”.
Now because Jesus had the Spirit/Word within him and the works he did were the Fathers that dwelt in him, Jesus could say, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
As you know, Jesus went to the cross and he DIED for us, and was quickened, made alive by the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit.
He was not raised a Spirit because in no uncertain terms Jesus told them he wasn’t and gave an example, touch me etc.
He rose as such and he will return as they saw him go (like manor) and that Man Jesus when he comes again will judge the world.
Now Jesus was having trouble getting people to understand earthly things.
So he pretty much said, how on earth will you believe me if I tell you heavenly things and he then gives an example of a “coming” future heavenly thing.
(I’ll have to draw upon the actual verse to avoid misleading).
No man hath ascended up to heaven, (future event now), but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man which is in heaven.
Clearly, it’s future as he says he is in heaven.
When did he go to heaven then or is this referring to?
He said to the woman, DON’T touch me as I have not yet been to the Father.
The sacrifice’s as in OT times had to be clean, not defiled, so he went to the Father first and then back again where it was then OK for them to touch him.
(This area could be debated as I see there is all sorts of ideas on this one).
Now God has put all things under Jesus feet until death no more wherein Jesus hands it all back to his God and Father where we, including Jesus will be subject to God.
The name of the one on the horse “The Word of God” referenced in Rev = name only.
Many draw upon this verse to say, the likes of, see, see, Jesus is The Word in John 1:1.
I’ll repeat, it is name only and is NOT saying He is The Word of God.
Many names given to people in the Bible have meaning/representations and that is generally in reference to the role God has planned for them.
Ex – Abraham’s name was changed after the promise and the name represents – Father of many.
Likewise, as Jesus tells us at least 4 times in John and the prophesies, that He Speaks The word of God, hence exalted etc and brought the Word/Spirit into the world like no one else before Him = Hence being given that name.
Oddly enough though, the verse says, “but no man knew this name”, which appears to be still going on to this day to a large degree?
I believe the name Jesus means the likes of – God’s salvation, God saves and we have many verses saying, God is our saviour and we know full well he always planned to do this through Jesus and now all things are in Jesus’s hands.
The term The Word as I see it, encases ALL of God’s word, while in him and expressed out of Him, as there is no question about it, your word starts within you. As in you abide in The Word = all of it.
Effectively, The Word is a summary, title and you will notice it is effectively interchanged in the Bible with God’s name.
John’s first two verses, the Word is still within God and express by 1:3.
The Word is Spirit = effectively one in the same and they are interchanged in the Bible – In the OT, The Spirit of the LORD said unto me and The Word said unto me, (no angle’s etc involved) = same thing.
You will notice also, even when an Angel brought the Spirit/Word to someone, later you will see they say, they actually spoke to God and another, now I have seen your face etc.
Hence, we have in past times God spoke in divers manors etc BUT in these LAST days has spoken to us via his Son. So IMO, we can in no way insist the OT people were speaking or hearing from Jesus.
The Jews knew full well what The Word was and what it meant to them.
Now then, some will claim I am denying the deity, not at all as that is covered above, came forth, down from out from God.
Some will then claim I make a mockery of the sacrifice God made for us, he effectively being on the cross.
I suggest I am doing the opposite – What would be the hardest to do, put yourself on the cross or your Son?
Not to mention, Jesus being a man, could have sinned and a lot harder for him than it would be for God. So his will etc or strength to stay on track is HUGE, hence an even more ultimate and prefect sacrifice.
However, he did have God within him hence he was able and set the example.
Now I will just throw out a possible thought but don’t take it as Gospel.
Satan being made as he was with all the descriptions the Bible says, perfection etc. Satan says to God it’s your fault because if you had made me so perfect, I wouldn’t have sinned etc.
God says, OK I’m fare and reasonable but I will show you, I will send one lower than you, man and he will show you.
Anyway, back to Jesus as per the John.
Another key event that were the results of God & Jesus, and that was to re-open the Door to God, communication and not for just a select few as in OT times.
While Jesus was here, we had the Spirit/Word/Light (God) with us in Jesus, hence Jesus said, while I’m in the world I am the light of the world, shinning the Fathers light or light thereof.
Jesus being the first child of the Father of lights.
So naturally when Jesus was to go, that was to go, hence he effectively said, no worries guys, I will ask the Father to send you another = same as but not in him = The Comforter which is The Holy Spirit the Father = Spirit/Word which will teach us and we know from Acts this request/promise was fulfilled which we should now see and hear, hence we need no one to teach us.
Through this One Spirit of the Fathers, Jesus said he will come to us as well and in fact he said, “WE” will make our abode with you, He and the Father God.
We are to become the Temple of God, se he can be All in All.
So Jesus being what I say here,,,,,which I say is what the Bible says, God’s perfectly happy with him, exalted him, so I will do likewise.
Your last question - On the Biblical subject I rely on the Bible, Comforter type subject with the sole purpose of being guided to God & Jesus’s truth, direction etc and that’s regardless to what I think or want.
Often if I’m trying to decide what to do on something or thinking something about something or looking to make a decision and not sure, I effectively turn to Jesus and say or think, what would he say = Bang there’s your answer.
You know the saying – KISS = Keep it simple stupid, doesn’t Jesus suggest we need to become like children haha.
Effectively empty your brain of all this philosophy of Man etc.
